December 12 2019 17:29:37
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Biblical Fruit
Ngamotu34
Christ said He didn't come to earth to condemn us but to save us, He came for sinners who will enter Heaven b4 those who think they're so righteous that they don't need saving.

As for those who have never heard Te Rongo Pai, I believe God is a good & fair judge & won't condemn them either. Maybe they will get a 2nd chance in the millenial reign or be judged according to their hearts. That's why missionaries go to them, - & don't start telling me all that's wrong with them! They do their best & put up with alot of hardship to do it.

People who deliberately do evil are not so much children of God as children of the Devil, - I can give you scripture for all my statements but it probably wouldn't make much difference! like banging my head against a brick wall! At the end of the day, you choose what you will believe, nothing anyone says will convince you.

If you think humanity will learn from its mistakes, you're wrong & more in fairyland than you think! Humanity just gets worse, & one of the reasons for that is becoz they reject good & God.
 
eunicemoanacole
it is the spirit within that lightens up mylife.a passerby in the street has spirit.I agree with plumduffaine u hang in there guiding,protecting,patience and love.That is called unconditional love.When they err in their ways u envelope them in your arms and give them understanding of that error.There is no right or wrong.
Ngamotu34do u know the name of Timothy's mother.I apply the universal principles the best way I Know how.Mankind is the only species that was given the ability to make choices.Animals only kill to feed and protect their young.
I have a few bibles on my bookshelf,that just landed@my feet.I dont have any particular denomination.
Yet the basic principles my parents taught
me,was love,respect,share and grace.There was 10 of us,a small family compared to us in those days.
I gather that you are talking about the higher consciousness.
what is religion any way?How did it come into exsistence?
Were we slowly indoctrinated,when we went to primary school?
My body is my temple . I only preach to myself and undertake maintenance on my physical being by having a private converstion with the lord.
 
eunicemoanacole
Humanity is a whole species.Jesus went into the den of inequity to show the sinners the error of their ways and left them to absorb what he was saying.Heaven is here on earth and if you can clean up your act your families can live in harmony. I am here on this earth to learn about me and follow the pathway that was shown to me,not lecture anyone else about their pathway.Its the experience we have on that pathway that makes us grow within ourselves.
 
Ngamotu34
Some people may be as kind as you are but many are not.
We can't say there's no right or wrong, - child abuse for example.
Yes, you have Timothy's mother's name! Lovely.
Higher consciousness, - must be when we realise there's more than the ordinary plane of living & look up.
Some people haven't been taught good things.
I'm not afraid to lecture people whose lives are in a mess, I'm not going to sit by & leave them to it. Not that I lecture them, I try to relate to them in love & humility.
Religion & God awareness has always been the basis of civilisations until we tried to say there is no God.
We certainly need to maintain our spiritual growth, & if we haven't yet become aware of our spiritual self we need to.
If we believe that there are many paths to God, we are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Either we accept all of His teachings or none of them.
Some religions say it's OK to kill etc., that's not a pathway to God.
I respect other people's right to their own beliefs until they start injuring me or rubbishing what I believe. Then I stand up for myself & Christianity.
 
tane_ariki
Ngamotu34 wrote:
Some people may be as kind as you are but many are not.
We can't say there's no right or wrong, - child abuse for example.
Yes, you have Timothy's mother's name! Lovely.
Higher consciousness, - must be when we realise there's more than the ordinary plane of living & look up.
Some people haven't been taught good things.
I'm not afraid to lecture people whose lives are in a mess, I'm not going to sit by & leave them to it. Not that I lecture them, I try to relate to them in love & humility.
Religion & God awareness has always been the basis of civilisations until we tried to say there is no God.
We certainly need to maintain our spiritual growth, & if we haven't yet become aware of our spiritual self we need to.
If we believe that there are many paths to God, we are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Either we accept all of His teachings or none of them.
Some religions say it's OK to kill etc., that's not a pathway to God.
I respect other people's right to their own beliefs until they start injuring me or rubbishing what I believe. Then I stand up for myself & Christianity.


Kia ora
 
Plumduffannie
Just as a christian is compelled to share their faith/belief in god, and, that by doing so others will follow, I too am predisposed to putting my point of view. That is; there is no evidence to prove there is a god, and, there is no evidence to prove that the bible is the word of god. Monstrous connotations such as blasphemy, devil's advocate/worshiper, anti-christian, heretic, morally corrupt, all serve to ensure that the moral high ground remains the domain of the faithful theist. This, together with an apologist mentality that even though we may not believe, it would be disrespectful to rock the holy boat by putting god on the stand. Within the last 10 years mass communication has linked people of all persuasions and like mind into sub-groups. The effects of shared knowledge on a global scale are pushing intellectual frontiers at an exponential rate. Very exciting times. I find christianity, like hypnosis, mentally invasive. Our traditions, lands and culture have been diminished under the shroud of middle eastern theocracy. We have a world view that the rest of humanity is only just beginning to realise. The green movement, environmental impact, ecological security and the like are common thoughts in our daily lives. We have our deities. They are all, without exception "representative" of the natural world. We respect them, we live with them; but we don't worship them. I have a father, I love him. He loves me. I feel challenged when this man who has been my constant guiding companion throughout my life is diminished by the ideal that an invisible guy, desirous that I love him with all my heart and with all my mind in order to get to heaven is elevated the the name "Father". The gods are many but I have only one Father.
 
tane_ariki
Plumduffannie wrote:
Just as a christian is compelled to share their faith/belief in god, and, that by doing so others will follow, I too am predisposed to putting my point of view. That is; there is no evidence to prove there is a god, and, there is no evidence to prove that the bible is the word of god. Monstrous connotations such as blasphemy, devil's advocate/worshiper, anti-christian, heretic, morally corrupt, all serve to ensure that the moral high ground remains the domain of the faithful theist. This, together with an apologist mentality that even though we may not believe, it would be disrespectful to rock the holy boat by putting god on the stand. Within the last 10 years mass communication has linked people of all persuasions and like mind into sub-groups. The effects of shared knowledge on a global scale are pushing intellectual frontiers at an exponential rate. Very exciting times. I find christianity, like hypnosis, mentally invasive. Our traditions, lands and culture have been diminished under the shroud of middle eastern theocracy. We have a world view that the rest of humanity is only just beginning to realise. The green movement, environmental impact, ecological security and the like are common thoughts in our daily lives. We have our deities. They are all, without exception "representative" of the natural world. We respect them, we live with them; but we don't worship them. I have a father, I love him. He loves me. I feel challenged when this man who has been my constant guiding companion throughout my life is diminished by the ideal that an invisible guy, desirous that I love him with all my heart and with all my mind in order to get to heaven is elevated the the name "Father". The gods are many but I have only one Father.


We don't worship Ngā Tūpuna now but we used to however our manner of worship was not the same manner of worship in the Christian sense. Our karakia involve a lot of placating the Ngā Tūpuna and it was the role of the tohunga to ensure that offerings were made that kept them placated too. Tāne-mahuta, Tūmatauenga etc etc are our ancestors both metaphorically and literally...
 
Ngamotu34
If the universe & this beautiful planet duzn't convince anyone that there is a Creator, what else do you need to prove it?

There's a difference between our earthly Father & our heavenly Creator/Father.
 
bash17
Ngamotu34 wrote:
You're right, I should refer to God as "IT" or "He/She". Maybe God hasn't got a sexual affiliation, I don't think of He/She as male.

How do you see God in us all? Have you got scriptures for that?
To me, the God we all have in us is conscience, & some of us have got very little of that & what we do have is "seared", - i Timothy 4:1- .it has become immune to truth & sin.

No-one understands all the scripture, we're all ever learning.

Mankind is meant to be more precious than gold, this is how God sees us & wants us to be.

Isaiah 13:12; Lamentations 4:2; Zechariah 13:9; & Job 23:10.

Was I forgetting "other species were here b4 mankind"?

I look around at God's creation every day & marvel at what He's made & how He "makes the flowers bloom" etc.!

Do I "apply the principles"? Well, I sure try to! What about you?


I agree that God is it/she and he at the same time, and that we should be more careful how to name god. I also like how you point out that we should look ad God's creation everyday. You're right! Sometimes a friend of mine sends me flowers by post from uk and I always think that without God's help I would not have the opportunity to smell the lovely bouquet.
 
Plumduffannie
Bash
If you're wanting to place ads on this website go to the maori.org commercial service; it is inappropriate that you use these forums for that purpose. And your post is weird anyway.
 
Plumduffannie
Ngamotu34 wrote:

There's a difference between our earthly Father & our heavenly Creator/Father.



That is not proof, it is your belief. There is a difference.

Even as a child I could not help but wonder why heaven had "streets of gold", or "in my father's house there are many mansions". What a mean father I thought, to not share this unlimited wealth with all his children, millions of whom were obviously suffering. For believers to be so inspired by the beauty, power and love of God on the one hand and then ignore the fact that tsunami, floods, crop failure can only be an act of God or the evil of Satan is dogmatic impotence. I state again, for every person on this earth there is only one father.

In an earlier post you stated that there is only one pathway to God, otherwise we would be calling Jesus a liar. Well the story about Jesus, particularly his birth is just that. A story. Every 25 December the sun having reached its southernmost position stops (or appears to stop) then rises again after 3 days to move northward. It's called the winter solstice and was a ritualistic event thousand of years before the birth of Jesus as many earlier virgin births will attest to. The shift from polytheistic to monotheistic is notable from the time of Abraham; that is the crucial reason why they felt compelled to leave Egypt. Over 40 years people were continually leaving Egypt. There is no archaeological evidence for the en masse shift. In fact most of what makes up the "Israelites" now are Canaanites of Assyrian extraction. Certainly disenchanted groups moved out of Egypt but the majority were on the ground ahi kaa, Canaanites who overthrew political and spiritual oppression together with these wandering groups; something they could never have done in Egypt and, on their own.
 
Ngamotu34
We're all entitled to our own beliefs, for now anyway. If Islam has their way we'll be forced into the position of not blaspheming theirs.
We know that the Roman Catholic church replaced pagan festivals with Christian observances.
The difference between Christianity & other beliefs is that Christ lived a sinfree life, qualifying Him to replace the sacrifices of animals for the remission of our sins. This sounds primitive to you but don't be surprised when this practice resumes at Jerusalem under the global rulerwho will be accepted as the Jewish Messiah & Islam's 12th Imman.

Most prefer to believe scientific evidence & the writings of unbelievers rather than the evidence recorded in the Bible. Again, this is the choice we're free to make.

Whether we accept earthquakes etc. as "acts of God" or nature is a secondary issue. Is there a Creator, if so what & who is it, & why did it create the universe? That is the $1,000,000 question.
 
Plumduffannie
Eternity is eternity. No beginning, no end. The continuum. The only thing one can compare life to really. Science requires that claims remain theory until there is evidence to prove it to be so. Belief and faith are not science. I cannot say there is no god but I see no evidence to prove that there is.

The human problem is that we cannot conceive of our "precious" lives in the same terms as the life of a tree, animal or river. It is life, not the human expression of life that is eternal. The future will continually and at times radically alter how we express our humanity but the constant is life. Mauri ora!
 
Ngamotu34
Science is man's study of creation.

Spirituality is man's relationship to the unseen realm which affects his lifestyle.

In Te Paipera Tapu we read in Romans 1:19 - , "That which may be known of God is manifested to them, for God has shown it to them. For the invisible things of Him from the beginning of the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power & Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, & their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, mailciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, mailgnity, whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, implacable, unmerciful, - who knowing the judgement of God, not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them".
This was written by Paul to the Jews who have always been a self-righteous people

Our sins hurt others, often those we should love, who are precious to us.
Scientific knowledge isn't going to help us with our irresponsibility & abuses, but God can & does help us if were willing to look into it.
 
Ngamotu34
The above quote in plain English, - God has proved He exists by His creation, (I think it's weird to think everything has always existed!).

People only doubt His existence because of blindness & ignorance,
because they don't want to think about the possibility that we may be held accountable for our selfishness & meanness to others, our rape of mother earth, our pride & greed for power.

The Arabs were just as much guilty of crusading as the Christians, only they still have ambitions of ruling the world, by bloodshed if necessary.
Christians are not all ignorant, uneducated imbeciles, - many are the opposite of what you portray, (some are even scientists).

No doubt you consider yourself more highly evolved than those of us who believe in God.
You say your father was good, many are not.
Where did you get the Bible knowledge you grew up with?

I suggest to all readers of this thread that they try to get hold of "The Nostradamus Effect", not a relgious production but knowledge we all need to prepare us for what lies ahead.

"He aha te mea nui?
He tangata! he tangata! he tangata!"
 
Plumduffannie
[quote]Ngamotu34 wrote:
The above quote in plain English, - God has proved He exists by His creation, (I think it's weird to think everything has always existed!).
Cannot be as weird as the promise of everlasting life when it was already so
[/b][/i]
[b
]People only doubt His existence because of blindness & ignorance,
[/b]
"I think the oposite, apparently there are not that many but this is the plight of the chosen few"

because they don't want to think about the possibility that we may be held accountable for our selfishness & meanness to others, our rape of mother earth, our pride & greed for power.

"we are accountable to ourselves for our own actions; failing that a judicial system - believing in a flying spaghetti monster does not make you any less accountable; you hold to your faith believing this to be so. Any form of self deprecation is mental slavery.

"The Arabs were just as much guilty of crusading as the Christians, only they still have ambitions of ruling the world, by bloodshed if necessary.

"You hold a jaundiced view of the Islamic faith. Halliburton is an arms company (top 3 largest in the world) in the US that supplied arms to Iran, Iraq, El Quaeda, there are many more. Which side they were on was irrelevant; it was business. Notably, W. Bush was a senior executive of Halliburton during his tenure as President. He was a "business associate" of Osama Bin Laden. This became intolerable after the Bali bombings, unforgivable after 9/11. Not so much so however that father and son orchestrated the "weapons of mass destruction" disinformation propaganda against Sadam Hussein. This, to take the heat off them and their association with bin Laden. They knew where he was all this time. Of course the now President had no such shackles and "went for him". What I am getting at is that the Bush's reign and Christianity are synonumous. Countless millions have died at the hands of weapons of mass destruction; Christianity is certainly up there with the best of them and remains so.

Christians are not all ignorant, uneducated imbeciles, - many are the opposite of what you portray, (some are even scientists).

"This is an unecessary comment - rebuttals are all I'm into"

No doubt you consider yourself more highly evolved than those of us who believe in God.
You say your father was good, many are not.
Where did you get the Bible knowledge you grew up with?


"Nothing so grand. I love biology/nature. That's it. It has greatly influenced how I think. My father, very strict, austere, well read, WW2 vet as was his father before him a WW1 vet. Te Ao Maori to the core, almost to the point of racism. A "God fearing man" I was brought up in my early years in the Ratana Faith. Father got hoha with the drinking, smoking and koretake parenting hypocrisy and got into the Open Bretheren thing when I was about 9. Full on bible study which I got stuck into, til I left for boarding school of the Anglican faith. Trained and worked in early childhood for the SDA's while my children were pre-schoolers. Cuzzys who are JDubs, Mormon, Destiny, Catholics, Charismatics, Pakipaki. Friends who are Buddhist, Taoist, Bahai, Atheist. They all have a crack at me cos I "don't have a belief". Most truly feel sorry for me. I have never been baptised. My father now 87, still sharp as, we continue to lock horns over numerous issues; religion is our favourite. His big thing was my not accepting the Lord as my personal saviour. "Just get up out of your seat and go to the front he reckons" 30 years ago my whanau and friends told me I was weird, deaf, arrogant and plenty of other not so nice things; especially when they got haurangi, something I also have never had a need for. I love natural, its always been like that for me.
Edited by Plumduffannie on 01-07-2013 02:25
 
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